After 25 years of being an underground die-hard, could you talk about what aesthetic you see going on right now? Is there any counter-culture?
Well, I don't think that there has ever or will ever be a time when there isn't a subculture or counter-culture. However, in order for this revolutionary culture to be of any importance the people involved must be focused on specific topics and unified in their desire to change things. "There is nothing to do here," is not the rallying cry for a new revolution, though "What exists here is just not going to work, and this is how I (we) am going to change it for the better!" is a start.
I was lucky enough to feel badly enough about myself back in the early 80's and stumbled onto the, then infant, east coast Punk Rock scene. In '82 the kids were united, to a degree. They were mad as hell and they had some issues to address; Reagan, the Cold War, and the Right's assault on the middle-class. Some people were just your run-of-the-mill assholes, while others were definitely empowered by the positive vibe that was flowing back then. Ask any person who was into it back then, who happens to still associate with that movement, and the will say, "PUNK ROCK CHANGED MY LIFE!" I am of that time and of that mindset.
Standing here today, looking out over what came of the source of my hopes and inspirations, well, it is now something way too corporate and sheep-like to really of be of any real consequence to a revolutionary mindset. MTV owns most of it (the part that Hot Topic hasn't bought yet) and the scene's true enemies (complacent sheep of this world) have stepped into the administrative positions. The revolution is being televised and it looks pretty damned pointless to me.
As an aside, I was skimming through SPIN just the other day and happened to catch a quote mouthed by Billy Joe Armstrong (Green Day) stating, "I want for Green Day to be the biggest band in the world!" in reference to their upcoming "stadium tour." Obviously, this quote echoes the sentiment of the new PUNK paradigm; it wants to be the biggest and most "sellable" demographic in the music world. That is just ridiculous. Oh, how far have we fallen? Now, strangely enough, I stand defiantly to defeat this new, and considerably more evil, version of PUNK ROCK, and replace it with something that actually means something to those who don't want to be the biggest anything in this world.
So, to conclude: Any time that there is a problem with the structure; a problem that a large group of people agree is actually a problem, and people want to change it, well, then you have a counter-culture. It is that simple. Right now it is a dim light but I suspect that the next mass movement of nerds, geeks, and the disenfranchised is just around the corner. Or, at least I can hope, right?
What do you think "underground" or "renegade" needs to do to grow into a strong counter-cultural force right now?
Well, I guess that I just sort of answered this question, but I will try to "cliff note" here. If you are one of those people who thinks that everything is "alright" and that the Left is just too "reactionary," then welcome to the wonderful world of that the rest of us call HELL. When one mindset becomes everybody's manifest destiny then we are failing to embrace diversity and uniqueness in our culture. Happens all of the time but, well, we are a country founded on diversity and rebelliousness. Would hate to see that change all of a sudden, right?
Sometimes, I see the word "RENEGADE," as it applies to me, to mean a person who (1) sees the problems clearly, (2) knows that the problems can be changed, realistically, (3) has a plan to change it, and (4) moves to make that change with the help of a coalition of like-minded people. That is all text-book activism, honestly, but acting on YOUR plan is the key. Bad plans die. Good plans die. That doesn't matter, really, because it is empowering for you only if your plan lives for a while, bares some fruit, and then dies, right? That is nature speaking.
Anyway, there are a million plans out there, and millions of planners (I know a few of them), and so we are just waiting for that one thing that unifies us to move forward. My big deal right now is with corporate music, corporate art, and the corporate mentality. Watch "The Corporation" and you will know why I am so damned fired up about these crazy things. They are evil. However, I suspect that people reading this magazine already know that. Now, how do we change this culture? Sounds like the perfect time for a planning session to me!
How could "renegade" be built to resist being co-opted?
Oh hell, this is my bread and butter. At my age, and I am not giving that up so easily, I have found that the most effective way to resist being annexed is to take some shit. Question everything and be conscious of every breath that you take. Once you find your own personal happy medium, your Zen-like state, and you are comfortable with the fact that it is as close to "good" as you will ever get, then it is time to start building.
Find a reason to exist that is not punctuated by words like i-Pod, Play Station, Bling, or Low-Rider SUV, and see if you can find people out there that not only like your ideas but, well, like you for doing what they might not have had the power to do themselves. With the RENEGADE ART COALITION and RENEGADE ART PROJECT, my vision is built into the structure. I ask for feedback from my people and they give it to me. If it looks like a good idea, and if they are willing to help achieve their goal on the issue, then we work together.
Given that RAC is in my image, um, some micromanaging has to be done. But, well, that is how things go sometimes. It is when (1) the commander-in-chief loses sight of his/her vision, or (2) when outside influences become your bedfellows, that is when things start to go terribly wrong. At the top, and working on down, the power structure of any "renegade" group has to be dedicated and focused on just a few things, and they must be in agreement of how those things are going to become the groups reality. Outside that, everybody has other things that they want to pursue, though they are checked at the door when it is time to get down to the business of change. Watering down the group with moderate views is just a bad idea and only serves to satisfy the interests of those who don't feel like a fight.
Some lead and some follow. I want to be down with the leaders because my heart is on fire and I enjoy watching things evolve, actively. I am a Paleontologist by training so "evolution" is my thing and, so, I enjoy being part of the future - right now.
Does each band that goes from underground to major mainstream disintegrate the fabric of the underground? Are goals of money and fame destructive?
I think that you know the answer to this one but, well, I must say that I think that this is equally applicable to the "individual," and maybe more so than the band example. In the end it is the individuals that make up the bands and the bands and the individuals that often define a movement, so everybody is equally important in the disintegration of a standing underground (by the way, as much as I love to see subcultures evolve, I also support the death of them once they have outgrown their usefulness to the people they are supposed to support).
The modern PUNK ROCK example is just one of many historical youth movements that have outgrown their usefulness and turned into soul-less fashion shows (complete with a rebellious-sounding soundtrack) that really have no point at all but to sell records and scream-and-yell about this or that wimped-out issue in youth culture. Ugh, this is the shit that drives me crazy. If I look back over my shoulder I can see that I lost about 99% of my old PUNK ROCK friends along the way. The 1% that I still know, or know about, are truly great people from whom I have learned a lot over the years.
Essentially, this is what I see: Only a handful of people find their way to the underground and, unfortunately, many only find it useful in an "entertainment" context. They align themselves as an "audience" and amount to sheep in renegade's clothing. As the scene grows you hear these people say, "The scene was so much cooler back (affix miscellaneous number here) years ago," and then they bail.
Back in '95 or '96 I watched this happen in a big, fat, ugly way, when Indy Rock came along and drew from the sapped-out and ineffectual emo bands of the time. Some kids moved onto fame, while others admired their fame from afar. At some point so many bands were dressing Indy but playing punk music and, to me, well, it was obvious what they were up to. They would all bail eventually, and with them went their loyal following of hipsters, trend-setters, and white belts. Like rats abandoning the sinking ship, these kids could be heard to say, "Fuck Punk! Yeah, this is the kind of music that I always wanted to play anyway," in an attempt to rationalize their rapid change in attitude and dedication.
Luckily, most of my remaining friends were unaffected by all of this, but it serves as a stark example of what is possible when the keystones of your hometown "scene" decide to act on such glorious impulses as greed, fame, noteworthiness, relevance, and rock super-stardom.
So, yes, for every human-being walking out the door a piece of the rich cultural fabric is torn away from the giant quilt and replaced by a big gaping hole. About this I am not happy but I was very lucky to have been greatly empowered by a powerful movement way back when and am actively working for it to turn into something a bit more relevant to this time and place.
Oh well, it is only my life we are talking about here so I guess that I shouldn't get too damned teary-eyed, right? Okay, well, I spoke my peace here and hope that it will be found useful. Thanks for the time and the inspiration that the two of you (Suran and William) have provided me in the short time that we have known one another.
